917: Want More Real Estate Clients? Read the News! – Luciano D’Iorio

Aaron: Real Estate Rockstars. This is Aaron Amuchastegui. Today, I get to interview someone that’s really, really interesting. He comes from Quebec. Luciano D’Iorio is Managing Director at Cushman & Wakefield. I think a lot of you guys know Cushman & Wakefield is primarily only a commercial real estate broker. I’m hoping to talk to Luciano today about what’s happening up in Canada. What’s happening in Quebec.

We’ll talk a little bit about the three asset classes that are the primary ones that they focus on, and his journey from being an agent, being a broker to being the managing director. Luciano, thanks for coming on.

Luciano D’Iorio: Hey, thanks for having me, Aaron.

Aaron: Glad we could make it. You’re up in Montreal. Tell us a little bit about what’s life like in Montreal right now with everything. Are people back to work? What’s everything like?

Luciano: Actually, this week I’m pretty excited because we’ve actually opened up our office on Monday. We’re basically operating at 25% of our employees. The rest of the gang is still working from home and we are ready to go within our guidelines. We’ve been working hard over the last couple of months for reentry, and a proper reentry and a safe reentry.

This week on Monday was our first day back into the new normal, if we can call it that. Montreal in general we’ve been hit hard. We’ve been one of the hardest hit cities in Canada with COVID-19. A lot of our seniors, unfortunately, were struck by this virus. Our provincial government, which is equivalent to your state government, our premier basically had us on lockdown beginning in March 13th. Now slowly we’re starting to reopen.

Shopping malls reopened on, I believe it was the 22nd of June– Sorry. The 19th of June. 22nd of June was food courts. Non-essential businesses and offices I think are taking an approach of a staggered approach. We are deemed an essential service. We were back. We could have been back in operation in mid-May. Of course, like I said, we want it to be ready and make sure that our employees were safe and that we felt comfortable before coming in.

Which is why we came in on the 29th of June. It’s been a long haul.

Aaron: I live in Austin, Texas, and Texas started reopening six weeks ago. Probably. It was mid-May restaurants started to open. We could start to go out again and do some normal things. Right now, we’re starting to lockdown a little bit more again. It’s reversing some of those actions. I was really glad six weeks ago we could go out, and you guys have taken an extra pause. The future will tell us what are the best methods with all of this.

When you say 25% of the people at the office, is that something that your company is doing or is it still a state mandate? You guys just decide, “Hey, we’ll let 25% come back in. That’ll keep everybody safe. Everybody else work from home.”

Luciano: Exactly. That’s a maximum of 25%. Not all days we have 25% of the people in. There are some people that have decided not to come in. If they do decide to come in because they’ve got to pick up a laptop or they’ve got to pick up some sort of a document, then we arrange it that they are in as long as they’re not exceeding the 25%. We’re really trying to monitor things, make sure that everybody is safe and everybody is okay before we go out there.

Of course, our business exposes us to a lot of people. We’re on tours and things. It’s interesting because I started an industry group a couple of weeks back, with fellow brokers of competitive firms and also major investor landlords in the city in terms of, how did we want to reopen things as we were going to come out of the confinement? It’s interesting because we take it for granted to show space. We’re used to doing office tours and showing space in an office building.

Now, of course, if elevator access is restricted and you’ve got to jump from one building to another, you want to make sure that you’re not impeding on the normal operation that the building has for its own tenants. We’ve actually worked with the landlords and said, look, if you want us to come in and do office tours afterhours or before operating hours, and that’ll alleviate your stress on your elevators, then we’re happy to do that.

It was interesting to see how we came together as a community, to make sure that we’re up and running and as smooth as we can be.

Aaron: To adjust. For people that have never been to Montreal, what US city is it most like? You’re pretty close to New York, right? Across the border, a drive and maybe that’s why Montreal was so hard hit because New York was definitely a hard hit. How would you describe it compared to any US cities?

Luciano: I would say it’s a mix of Austin, believe it or not, in terms of just the live music scene and just the general eclectic mix that you have in Austin. Certainly, a mix of New York. We’re about 3.5 million people, 4 million people in the Greater Montreal area. We compare– Boston I would say is, although big rivals on the hockey side, but probably closest to Boston in terms of look and feel.

Luciano: Montreal, we are 45-minute drive to the US border, to New York State. In the past, our past, certainly at the beginning of the 19th century, there were a lot of families that had investments in Montreal from New York and New York families that were involved in Montreal and vice-versa. I think it’s still the case. That connection between Montreal and New York is very big, and anywhere East Coast and Northeastern US for sure.

Aaron: Let’s talk about commercial real estate. There have been a lot of different reports out here that break down performance levels. There was a statistic that came out of how many people were in default. The hospitality industry were the most amount of loans that were in default. Hospitality is like hotels and things like that. That commercial asset class has taken a really big hit in the US.

Over 30% aren’t paying their mortgage right now or are in some form of a default, which is pretty major. Then there was also the other office classes were– Commercial class or office space. Office space where people like you, you have your office there and people just go to work, and then retail where businesses go. That could be restaurants and things like that. There’s a lot of different outcomes. Some of the office-retail results that we’ve seen here definitely depend on the area.

Hospitality across the US is hurting, but office and retail depending on the city is hurting in different versions, and strip malls and things like that, especially where they have a couple of restaurant anchor tenants. What have you seen so far due to COVID in that market, and what do you think is going to happen across those three markets?

Luciano: If I look at it, hospitality we haven’t– and I’d have to look at what our latest studies are, quite admittedly I haven’t seen what we’ve done but I can tell you anecdotally what I’m seeing in Montreal. Montreal has been known as a festival town, a bit of a party town certainly in the summer.

We have a few big events in Montreal that make or break it for most hotels and restaurants, and that’s the Grand Prix, Formula One Grand Prix which is an international event which draws certainly billions of spectators on television, but millions of dollars into the city over a weekend in June. That was canceled. They’re talking about maybe having it in October, but those are– right now they’re not confirmed reports. I highly doubt that there would be any attendance at that event.

I think they’ll try just run it on the tracks without any spectators. The Grand Prix is a big event. The Jazz Festival is a big event. That’s something that’s been going on for over 30 years in Montreal, and that happens during the summer, around this time actually. That’s been canceled. Then we have the Just For Laughs Festival. Those are three big events that draw people from across North America and certainly from the US, into Montreal, that unfortunately those hotels and restaurants are not getting any of that revenue.

The restaurants are hurting, the restaurants were actually allowed to open, their in-dining rooms, as of last week, some of them just weren’t ready so they’re opening up this week. It’ll be interesting to see on how that goes down. In terms of offices, most office buildings were still fully operational, and allowing their tenants to come in and out of the building from a landlord perspective. We heard at the beginning from our landlord clients that, our investor clients, they said that some of the tenants were calling them for some sort of a rental break.

Some landlords gave some rental breaks and they said, “Just pay the operating expenses or taxes, and taxes rather and not pay the net rent.” Some others insisted that full payment was due. Some were getting a break on certain things like cleaning and parking and so on because, obviously, if people are not there then those fees don’t have to be taken, but the office side, actually it wasn’t so bad. Now, what we are hearing from the investor clients is that, there’s a government program in Canada by the federal government that’s basically helping pay for rents.

The government kicks in 25%, the tenant kicks in 25%– Sorry, the tenant kicks in 25%, the landlord kicks in 25%, and the federal government kicks in 50%. That looks like that’s going to be renewed now as a program for July. I don’t know what it’s going to look like for August, but since the pandemic hit that program has been in place.

Aaron: That’s for office space or?

Luciano: Yes. Commercial tenants. Either office or retail, anyone who has to pay rent. That program also it’s interesting because, I have a hard time keeping up on it because, at one point the building that you were in had to have a mortgage, and then they changed that and said, “No, you don’t have to have a mortgage, it’s open to anybody.” That’s constantly evolving but right now we’re seeing that the federal government is going to give a helping hand to retailers and to office tenants and industrial tenants. Any commercial tenant they are getting a break.

Aaron: That’s very different in Canada than in the US right now. There is stimulus out here and there’s been some different things but nothing that’s been long-lasting specifically for that. We’ve had PvP where people could get a certain amount of money to pay payroll, and a portion of it could be used to cover rents, but we have seen a huge decrease in office usage in Austin. Then, have you seen any, of some of the big companies here, Facebook, Twitter, companies like that have now announced that people can work from home forever?

A certain percentage of people could be– They were going to change their pay and they were to do some different things based on whether they work from home or not, but then everyone was going to be allowed to work from home. That instantly to me says that is going to dramatically impact office space because, even if there was stimulus, the big company like them would realize, “Hey, we only need half the space we needed before.”

Have you seen anything like that in Canada? Do you think it’s going to happen? What do you think the long-term outlook of businesses like that that are saying, “Hey, you can work from home now?”

Luciano: We have seen that in Canada. We think that there’s going to be some companies,

— No, they were doing it before. Before the pandemic, there were some companies that said, “We’re going to allow our employees to work from home and we’re going to set up hotelling in our office space, our workplace, we’re going to provide you with a space if you want to come in, but if not, you’ll work from home.” We saw that transition pre-COVID, pre-pandemic, but I have to say that there’s going to be some companies that it just won’t fly.

It won’t fly because I look at how much money we spend as corporations on trying to build culture and build teams, and right now the beauty of everyone working from home is we are all working from home. We’re all in the same boat. We’re all in the same storm, however you want to describe that, but the moment that some people are going to start working from the office and some people are going to work from home, I think it’s going to make an interesting dynamic.

I don’t want to play psychologists or sociologists but just being a manager of a team of people, I think that there’s people in my team that want to stay connected to the corporation and they see that a physical place is important. Also, and maybe it’s not so much in the brokerage world because everybody is an entrepreneur, but in a situation where you’re trying to go up the corporate ladder, I have a hard time seeing somebody working from home progress, let’s say in the corporate ladder, because at one point it’s the law of see and be seen.

It’s the law of, if you’re not in someone’s face you’re going to be forgotten. That is for companies where it’s important, a corporate culture is important, where there’s a team spirit and a team-building, that’s important. They’re going to have a hard time with everybody working from home. We saw that earlier, maybe about 5 or 10 years ago, I’m forgetting which company it was, but it was a big tech company that had people working from home, and then realize that this isn’t working anymore.

For some it’ll work, for others, I think that they’re going to want to have a mix and a hybrid. Will we be in the office five days a week? I don’t think we were in the office five days a week prior to this. There’s some people that for whatever reason, the dirty little secret was that they were waiting for delivery at home and so they said, “Well, today I’m going to work from home.” You don’t have this in Austin but in Montreal in the winters, our winters are pretty rough, and we get some big snowstorms.

When there’s a snowstorm coming in, most people decide to work from home on a day of a snowstorm because just between traffic and coming in and out of the city, it becomes almost impossible and not productive. That’s what we’re seeing right now, it’s– Interestingly enough we have a very strong tech sector in Montreal that’s based on artificial intelligence. There was just a group out of New York that announced just this week that, they’re going to be taking almost 30,000 square feet, 400 employees that they’re backed by SoftBank out of the US.

They’re coming into Montreal in a big way. They’re committing to a lease in Montreal in the middle of a pandemic.

Aaron: That is really interesting. One of the differences are, right now, as people are looking at where to invest, and I’ve seen Canadian investors invest in the US for flips and things like that because they say, “Hey, if I make $20,000 in the US, it’s really like making $ 25,000 here” because in Canada and vice versa. The other side of that too is if you’re in the US and you’re investing American dollars up in Canada, the exchange rate is like 1.3 or 1.4. A million dollars, US, buys you something for 1.4 up in Canada, something like that. Does that come into play a lot for investors that cross the border, back and forth?

Luciano: Yes, that’s exactly it. Certainly, the dollar right now, our dollar is weaker to the US. The Canadian dollar is weaker to the US dollar. Definitely, there’s some deals to be had in Canada just based on the exchange rate. Now, of course, there’s other things that factor in, and there’s taxes and there’s also some language barrier certainly, if you’re doing business in Quebec. In general, money will follow where it can grow. Right now, our markets in across Canada but especially in Montreal, have been undervalued.

We never really built on spec in Montreal when it came to office space or industrial space. We never really built on spec, so the demand was very high coming into COVID back in March and the supply was low. If I think of the on the industrial side, we still have some older buildings that don’t have the clear heights, the 18 foot ceilings and so on, which for the benefit of people listening here, an 18 foot ceiling on an industrial building is obsolete today, because of the way we store things in warehousing and so on.

You want 24, 28, sometimes even 32 foot clear so that you can palletize in a warehouse. Those don’t exist as existing buildings– There are but certainly, the demand is higher than the supply, so you’ve got to build. That’s what we’re seeing right now, especially on the industrial side in Montreal, the markets on fire. The markets in Toronto and Vancouver have similar situations where there is demand for that type of space.

Aaron: You mentioned language. Montreal mostly French?

Luciano: Montreal is mostly French. If you’re opening up a business here, I always like to use these two examples. One is Kentucky Fried Chicken, KFC in in Quebec is PFK and PFK means Poulet Free Kentucky. It means the same thing, except we brand it as PFK. If your listeners are looking for KFC in Quebec, that’s what they’ve got to look for, PFK instead. The other thing is Hollywood films, Hollywood blockbuster films, whenever there’s a big blockbuster film, I always use this as an example, as the Star Wars series.

If the Star Wars were to launch a movie on May 4th around the globe, it would have to be dubbed in French first before launching in Quebec. That basically is, it’s a law but it’s also respectful of the fact. There’s over 80% of the people in Quebec are French speakers and French native tongue. Certainly, you have to know your market, wherever you are. If you’re doing business in Quebec, you certainly want to have a knowledge of French or at least, have people on your staff that are knowledgeable in French.

Aaron: Yes, indeed. How did you get into real estate?

Luciano: Graduated from McGill University at the age of 23. I wanted to be an entrepreneur and I saw this as a good way of being an entrepreneur, having less risk because if you open up retail outlet, you have to rent space, you’ve got to pay rent, you’ve got to stock the store, you’ve got to hire employees and you haven’t made a dime yet. Most businesses, they say, it takes about five years for it to start making money. I saw real estate as a good way of being your own boss, being in control of your own situation and relatively low-barrier of entry.

That was it, I was 23 years old. I didn’t know square foot from a square peg but then here we are.

Aaron: Did you start in commercial?

Luciano: I did, right out of school. I didn’t want to do residential because I felt that I really wanted to control my hours. I didn’t want to get involved in a business that would have me working until 10:00 PM at night and on weekends. Nights and weekends, I really wanted to use to do philanthropic work, to do other things that interest me and I felt that residential, although I probably I would have done well in it, and I respect a lot of my colleagues who do that, because I think it’s a grind.

It certainly is a grind but I fell in love with the business to business aspect of the commercial real estate.

Aaron: I have never heard somebody bring up the difference between commercial and residential, the hours that you get to work but it’s a great point, because in commercial, you are dealing with people that are mostly working during business hours and business things and showing stuff at those times. With residential, it is primarily different. It’s primarily when people aren’t working. It’s primarily evening work and weekend work and it definitely is different.

It’s an interesting perspective for listeners out there, when you’re thinking about the differences between commercial and residential. Luciano, how did you do your first year when you got into it? Did you make any money your first year in commercial?

Luciano: Are you checking my income tax?

Aaron: Yes, I heard that it’s so much harder when you get going.

Luciano: I hear that people are not allowed to reveal tax papers. I made $9,000 in the first year. That’s what we call our T4, here in Canada, basically. I made more money working part time and going to university than I did in the first year in real estate. That’s $9,000 Canadian, which is, I don’t know, five bucks US or something. It was a-

Aaron: You were working full-time that year and just didn’t have a whole lot of financial success?

Luciano: Yes. Truthfully, I was working half the year because from January till May, I was working and I was going to get my license. I was making sure that I was licensed. There were certain things I couldn’t do without a license. I had to be very careful but at the end of the year, I started in January of 1999, and at the end of the year my T4 said $9,000.

Aaron: How did you do on year-two?

Luciano: Year two, I made about $45,000 and then year-three, I got into the six figures and started making some serious money, enough for me to buy my first investment property. I bought a fourplex of four units. That was actually, I bought a fourplex before I bought a car. I didn’t have a car but I owned a fourplex. Don’t ask me how I got to the fourplex but-

Aaron: That’s how you end up paying your car payment later, is you get the fourplex and the rent buys your car.

Luciano: Exactly.

Aaron: First year $9,000, second year $45,000, by your third year, you were starting to realize that you can make some money and have a good, high, good-paying career. What did you learn those first few years? How did you get from zero to nothing and if you were going to redo it, what would you have done different?

Luciano: You know what? I think I would have been, if I were to redo it, I’d be less afraid. There was a fear of, certainly, when I didn’t have the license, it was a fear of getting caught. It was a fear of also, a bit of a fear of a rejection because our business, you’re calling out of the 100 phone calls you make to business owners, 90 of them are going to tell you to go away and 10 of them are going to listen to you. My pool of calls were in places where I thought I can get a yes, but the yeses were on small transactions.

If I were to do things differently, I would say you know what? The calls are the same, the amount of time that we spend are the same. We’ve all been given 24 hours in a day. That’s what makes us all equal. How I use those 24 hours and how– I guess, I’d be smarter. I’d be smarter in which pool, which pond I’d be fishing in. That’s, I would say that would be my advice would be, let’s do it differently by being smarter about searching for prospects and searching for clients.

Aaron: Commercial prospecting, if somebody came to you right now, and said, hey, I want to get involved in commercial real estate, how do I get my first clients? What would you tell them?

Luciano: I would say a few things and we’re luckier today than we were in 1999, because the search engines are more powerful. Information is readily accessible. Back in ’99, which doesn’t sound like that long ago, we were still using yellow pages. We were still using paper lists and stuff to find people. My advice would be, number one is start your day, by keeping up to date with news, and finding out what’s going on in terms of news. I’ll give you an example.

Right now, during COVID, a lot of people are investing, a lot of the businesses have to get plexiglass. One of the questions that I would say to a young broker is, think about that story that you read in the paper about how businesses are getting Plexiglas. For us, as brokers, I want to see who are the people that are supplying Plexiglas, these people may have issues because their warehouses, either they can’t keep up, they’re going to need more space. When I read a story in the paper, I read it diagonally.

I try to look at the beyond the story, because most people will read that and say, “Oh, well, people need to get plexiglass, that’s great.” When I read it, as a real estate broker, I’m thinking, “Well, wait a minute, there may be a problem there.” This person is obviously being inundated with orders, they’re probably going to have to open up a second plant, or they’re going to have to open up something, they may have a real estate problem, they may be running into a real estate problem.

Vice versa, people that said– at one point, we heard that restaurants were storing their chairs and their tables off-site because they weren’t allowed to open unless they had gotten rid of their tables and their chairs. For some of these big restaurant chains, they actually rented temporary warehousing. Those are the type of questions that as a young broker, you should be asking yourself when you’re reading a newspaper, or now everything’s digital, but when you’re reading an article or a story, dig and go beyond the story.

One of my favorite stories is one year, there was a lot of snow in Montreal. I read a story that the city was running out of places to store the snow. Well, I called my contact and said, a contact at the city and I said, “Do you need help finding a place to store snow?” He says, “Absolutely, we need help.” That particular day, I was searching for a place to store snow. That’s just from reading stories, reading stories, and reading them diagonally.

Aaron: Did you end up finding a place to store the snow?

Luciano: I didn’t actually and I’ll tell you why, because snow is very difficult to store. If you have clean land, you don’t want snow on it because of the residue, the environmental impact that snow can have on the land. Despite the covenant, because of course, as somebody who’s– If you call a landlord and say, the city of Montreal would like to store snow on your piece of land, they’re going to pay the market rent, and they’re going to pay you on time every month. Obviously, no, we didn’t get interest for that, because there was a contamination issue.

Aaron: That is very interesting stuff but I think it is a great point. I also hadn’t heard that tip on here before. Listeners, as you’re listening, especially when it comes to commercial retail serving people in business, the news helps out a lot. The news also helps out when they say, there’s a new plant getting put in over here. Tesla might be putting a new plant in at Austin. It hasn’t been quite been confirmed yet, the story broke that it was a certain neighborhood, but then the confirmation came back that they’re just looking at permits, and they still don’t know if they’re going to buy the land there.

Well, that instantly changes the value of the real estate nearby. It instantly changes– it’s phoning to people and say, “Hey, have you thought about selling or not?” Maybe it’s telling investors, “Hey, go buy up in this area, because there’s going to be a high demand. There’s going to be a factory a mile away that has 3,000 people working in it daily.” There’s pros and cons, all sorts of stuff. Listening to the news and reading the news, but reading it in a way that you say, “Hey, how can this affect the business?” Reading it diagonally like Luciano said, I think that’s a great way to put it in perspective.

Luciano: Yes, just in terms of, to get back to that Tesla plan. For me, how I would think is I would say, “Okay, well, Tesla’s coming in, who are Tesla’s suppliers? Who services Tesla that needs to be near them, and needs to be nearby?” To your point, also in terms of the neighborhood that were if Tesla is looking in a certain neighborhood, then who’s in that neighborhood and maybe is ready to sell or willing to sell, because timing is everything in our business. Location, location, location, and timing are two big things in real estate that I truly believe in.

It’s funny, there’s a neighborhood in Montreal, it’s called the Little Italy neighborhood. For the longest time, it started to, it was declining, restaurants were closing, no one was interested in going there. A block away, they’ve built a hub for artificial intelligence. You can’t get space in the neighborhood now.

Aaron: Yes, it is so quick. I know that years ago, it was trying to figure out where Costco was going to put in their job. As soon as Home Depot would apply for something that became a good city to invest in, because Home Depot would invest so much money into figuring out what places were going to grow, people would say, “Hey, if there’s a Home Depot getting put in, you want to go invest in real estate in that city, because that is city strong.”

There are all sorts of news out there that can impact the future, it’s getting the tag along with the research that they’ve already done. If you can’t pay a team, Home Depot can just go where they go.

Luciano: Just to be clear, I don’t only read the business. I read the sports section, I read the political section and the city news, because all of that affects what’s going on, and what’s going on in your city. If you’re serious about doing business in your city, and you want to understand the ins and outs of what’s going on, I think that’s the best way.

Aaron: How many people work at Cushman Wakefield in Montreal and what volume you guys doing?

Luciano: We’re over 50 people in Montreal, and we are basically doing, we do office, we do industrial, we do retail, we do some investment sales as well. We are basically out there. Also, we do tenant representation, we do agency work, we also do project management, valuations and advisory services, and asset management. We’re really a one-stop-shop in terms of full-service brokerage. We don’t only do transactional, but we also have consulting services, and service lines that help our clients.

Aaron: Well, it’s really interesting to get a perspective from Canada and a perspective from Montreal, all about what’s happening in business and from people that are– like I said, at the beginning, a lot of people are talking about commercial, and how hard commercial has been getting hit and the different things. It sounds like the government in Canada has taken a very different approach so far, to the government here.

One of the interesting points that I heard from you today that I hadn’t heard previously that makes a lot of sense is the idea of people working from home. A lot of businesses now are going to work from home all the time, but as far as getting seen and getting promoted– You can be the one that works the hardest at home, and you’re going to get promoted that way, but in really, really big businesses, it will be difficult for people that work remotely and just do a one hour daily stand up to actually move through the ranks. I get that point.

I understand that point. I think a lot of businesses are going to be moving to mostly virtual, but I could see why someone would– because part of me says, why would you live in San Francisco, a million-dollar condo, if you can live a three-hour drive away and live for 100,000?

Luciano: Well, the other thing, Aaron, is that people need people. I laugh because we could have all ordered out, we could have all ordered out during the pandemic from our favorite restaurants. Except, what happened the moment we were able to have deconfinement, people ran out and wanted to go to cafes, and wanted to go to the restaurants and wanted to go and see and be seen and just meet other people, because people need people.

I think that’s an important point.

I look at my own office, people want to interact and the things that are said at the watercooler as much as sometimes it’s just sports scores or whatever, but that interaction that you have amongst employees, and that interaction that you have with your colleagues, is what makes the environment and what makes it different. I can’t imagine somebody starting a new job in a new company during this pandemic, how hard it must be for them to feel like they’re part of something.

Short term it must be very frustrating because you don’t know anybody in the company. We all know each other right now but the newbie that’s coming in, it’s hard for them to integrate.

Aaron: Yes, I think it’s much easier for people to go from an office to remote because they already have the relationships, they already have the expectation, they already have the skillset and the training to actually start as remote. Yes, so much more difficult to feel that same culture. Luciano, if somebody wants to reach out to you, if they have a question about real estate up in Montreal, or want to talk to you about helping them with some investing, how can they find you?

Luciano: They can find me on Facebook, they can find me on LinkedIn, Luciano D’Iorio on LinkedIn on Facebook as well on Instagram and my email is probably the best @Luciano.dIorio without the apostrophe. D-I-O-R-I-O@cushwake.com. That’s probably the best way to get in touch with me.

Aaron: Great, we will have that in the show notes for the people that are listening. If you’re watching us on YouTube we’ll have it in the links down below or if it’s from any of the podcast download sites. Thank you Luciano for coming on here. Listeners, I hope that you guys learned a lot about some different perspectives on commercial real estate today, and a more positive outlook and some opinions from a different side, from a lot of stuff we’ve been hearing lately. Luciano, I appreciate you coming on and maybe we’ll have you on again soon.

Luciano: Thank you very much. Thank you Aaron appreciate it. Bye.

Aaron: Bye.